Vanilla WoW was challenging, TBC was decently challenging, WotLK is EZmode. Blizz has made the game accessible to people who don't have as much time to play as others, and there's something to be said for that, however, they do seem to have forgotten the 'hardcore' crowd. I was in an AQ40 PuG last night just to do the achievement and grind some Classic rep, and we still couldn't get past Twin Emps with ~30 palyers level 60+. That tells me that the challenge of the game is right for all but the hardcore, and if some of the blue posts are any indication, that will be rectified soon by having multiple levels of heroic.

That being said, I really dislike how unbalanced the game is. It used to be rock/paper/scissors. Now it's rock/paper/scissors/dynamite if it's off CD. I have spanked players that far outgear me and are 5+ levels higher, mostly because I have some uber ability that they just can't handle. On the flip side, they also have to suck a lot, since a good player knows his opponent's capabilities.

Vanilla WoW was one extreme in difficulty, WotLK is the other extreme. Blizz is screwing with game balance in order to try and get more players to experience more content, even if they don't have a lot of time to play the game each day. I have some faith that they will fix it, but don't hold your breath that it will be before the next xpac.

@xtoq: wow i've only heard rumors whisperred across wow about duel specs..if thats true i gotta roll me a hybrid.. any idea when thats going to come out???

Couldn't have said it better polkabear.  I agree; part of the way that you get experience (both good and bad) with those other classes and their abilities is by grouping.

@mgd40: I think the new Dual Spec (when it finally comes out) will help with this tremendously.  Healers can have a healing spec, but switch to their leveling spec when they aren't grouped up and learn BOTH specs while leveling.  /crossingfingers for it to come out sooner than Soon(tm).

rushing to 80 seems great, knowing how to solo is fine, but the reason we end up with morons is they do not know what anyone else really can or will do. as an example i've had hunters at 80 thinking they can multishot pulls before they get to a feral tank! its not a question of knowing how to play their class and spec, its a total lack of understanding of the variety of tanks, healers and what other cc/dps do and what their others will expect of them.

we all mash buttons to a certain extent to maximize damage/healing/agro its not rocket science!  the skill is in interacting with others abilities to make things work...give me a rogue in greens that knows how to get in position to sap over an epic geared one that isn't worried that worg is going to spot them because they are too uber to die....point is until you've done enough instances to experience all the different tanking healing cc and other parts of a group run you really know nothing beyond key mashing

also think of how many wowers grind the spec they use at 80...

not only do you have to realize how to play in a grp you have to learn how to play ur char all over again

i agree wow was my 1st mmorpg and somewhat still is... no matter how many times i leave i find my way back anyways comparing to the low level grind of LOTRO WAR AOC L2 "most" but not all are similar in terms that you get your char, most 1st toons are the dpsers the ones that "can" solo because whats the relevance of grinding someone who 1 cant solo well 2 is meant to heal / protect grp members IF grp members arent presesnt, it results in a slow less fun journey to your level cap, wows RAF ( recruit a friend ) is a good move to try to solve this but all RAF turns out to be is the higher lvl guy dragging his lowbie nub friend around while he learns nothing and the only real benefit is to the person who invited the other.

i think that grp instances need ZOMGQQ amazing items that make it worth the while, experience that makes it to appealing to pass up eg 2x solo exp / more gold / maybe even lowbie tokens that are below badges of heroism that give a leg up on other soloers at 80 ...

Oaris, until I said "Oaris" in my below comment, I was actually speaking to Kamikaze_Moron; so my "instances are there for reason" was directed towards him.  But I do think that low-end instances are there for a reason, although not great ones.  In fact, the bulk of my comment was directed toward Kamakaze; only the part after "And Oaris" was directed towards you.  So I actually AGREED with you Oaris.

And you're right Oaris, efficiency isn't the same as laziness, but on my server at least, it's not alts powerleveling by getting runs, its lazy newbie players DEMANDING that higher levels run them because, and I quote "it's not like a level 70/80 has anything else to do."  There are a lot of people of all proficiencies that play this game, but the ones that give these low dungeons and low level groups a bad name are lazy and will most likely be those that don't know how to play their class come the level cap.  Sure, they might be blacklisted by some, but not everyone is online everyday and has a perfect memory of the names of morons.  It seems many moronic DPS get into decent raiding guilds and their abysmal playing is covered up by their overgeared and well-rounded guildies.  There isn't an easy solution to this I'm afraid.

Right, but when other people find out that those people suck, they start getting blacklisted from groups and guilds, and then people either learn or leave. Your argument was that forcing people to group more and slowing down their leveling would make them learn how to work as a group - you can't now turn around and say, well some people will never learn, true, but we should still force everyone else anyway. That just makes ya look like some kind of moralizing authoritarian who wants those darn kids to have to suffer through just like you did, for their own darn good (nevermind that it wouldn't actually do any good, and would actually do a lot of harm too). Hehe.

I don't agree at all that people get runs because they're lazy or greedy. Most people wouldn't turn down a pug lowbie dungeon, there's just no one else around willing or able to do them, for just the reasons I said - impossible to find four other people to make up a balanced team, unless you're ok with the 5 deathknight group. Instances aren't the best exp anymore either - you're better off zerging non-instanced quests nowadays, the ones that don't waste anyone's time but yours. Efficiency isn't the same as laziness.

PS - I never said the instances were there for a reason - you did. I think they're basically useless when they're not end-game, and I certainly wouldn't farm them for gear on a lowbie who's going to outgrow it in 5 minutes. I'd be happier if they were all heroic-ified for the current level cap.

By the way, and maybe I'm just speaking for my guild, but we often prefer all-guild groups because we expect screw-ups and don't want to inflict them on innocent pug people or deal with the occasional jerk puggie.

I understand your point, but I have to disagree as well.  The lower level instances (let's say below 40) are simply there to get gear, pure and simple.  As Oaris said, those classes are so underdeveloped at that stage that making the instances harder would only put people off the game more.  In addition, a lot of people don't even make it to level 30 for lots of reasons, but a lot of times the reason is the game is too hard for them or just isn't their type of game.  You're right that those low end 5 mans are there for a reason; that reason is gear and learning how to play the game, and only marginally learning how to work together as a group.  It's not until those level 40 instances (and I'm being generous) that working as a group becomes necessary to avoid a wipe.  Obviously you always need a healer, but I don't know how many times I've seen SFK run with only DPS and an off-healer; it's just not that challenging at any level.

I think the worse problem, which is sort of related to your post, is that people don't take the time to run instances anymore, at least on the servers I've played on.  They look for run throughs from high level guildies or bored players hanging out in trade chat because they are lazy and/or greedy.  You're right that there isn't much incentive to learn to work as a group in the low levels, but that's because the game mechanics are still being introduced; the learning curve is still curving at that level.

And Oaris, I have to say, even when some people hit end game content and find out they suck, sometimes they still don't learn their class.  Not to mention all the eBay accounts out there...but that's another topic for another day.

I think you meant Dire Maul, not Deadmines. Dire Maul was a lvl 60 primer for raiding, and was never raidable. I don't think people learn much about the game or their class dicking around in a lvl 20 instance, given how unimpressive are the encounters and how underdeveloped are the classes that low.

Taking twice as long to level just means taking twice as long to level, it has no bearing on whether or not you ever learn your class. People rarely grouped outside of their guilds for lowbie dungeons, and people only got through the lvl 60s by taking twice as many people as necessary to smash the crap out of them, which isn't exactly a testament to pugs (10mans wiping on 5man content... hooray). Those things also never ensured that people learned their class. And people don't 5man while leveling because the game is so unbalanced and the servers too spread thin over the landscape to find a class balance capable of doing it, not when every tank and healer is DPS-spec'd just to survive.

People don't learn their class until they hit end-game and find out they suck, no matter where that end-game is positioned, no matter how long they have to grind to get there.

You sound like Andy Rooney.

I have to agree with you on the levelling aspect of instances, it would be much better if there was more incentive to a levelling player to go to an instance other than to try to get a nice item (though that does seem to be enough to promote making groups on my server), and if people understood that group capabilities of their class a little better then indeed it would make PuGing instances a little easier.

My guess is that this is less of an issue with people who have played their character since vanilla wow, because they learned a lot about their class then and appreciate group mechanics and levelling up in instances (I did most of my levelling in instances 1-60 way back when). However, for newer players, the emphasis on levelling in instances has gone, partly because everyone is on their ma level characters and there are few people of any given level range willing to instance, and a lower level character (Even up to level 60 these days) can be boosted by one or two max level players and never learn valuable ways of using their class in a group environment.

This said, people do learn in time, and just because they didnt learn early doesn't mean they wont get there in the end. I'll still go with PuGs simply because my guild dont always want to go, and being the Tank I do, as it was mentioned, control the pace somewhat, meaning i can be sure that everyone knows what they are doing, and help them out if they are not sure, so the group progresses and the players learn for another day.

Thats not the reason imo. The reason no one does them is that you dont need a key to do heroics at lvl 80. So everyone goes straight to 80 and do heroics with bad gear. No need to practice in normal is bad and everyone seems so much in a hurry. Instances take time. Tank and healer decides the pace. Learn that and it will be much more fun!