The Zen: Philosophy and WoW

A Disparate World (of Warcraft) - Part 2

PVP: Player vs. PvE.

Maybe a lot of you don't remember the original honor system. To understand what I'm talking about, I'll give you a bit of background.

The old honor system had ranks. Honor points went towards your rank. If you had enough honor points to put you higher than someone else that week, your rank would go up. Essentially, you had to continuously PvP to be high-ranked, and to keep it. You only got gear when you reached a certain set of ranks, Long story short, you had to PvP for a good month straight before you reached high enough to get gear.

Now, with a different honor system, everyone has an equal chance of getting gear, whether they only PvP when they're bored or if they're hardcore. That wasn't a problem when the new honor system came out. When it came out, my guild still did MCs. As a matter of fact, that PvP gear helped push people out of greens and into the blues needed to surpass that horrible raid known as MC. That was helpful.

PvP used to be about being the strongest player, with most efficient quick-kill strategy. The game pretty much, before resilience, was a rock-paper-scissors game.

"Rock" (Plate Wearers) beat "Scissors" (Leather/Mail Wearers), "Paper" (Cloth Wearers) beat "Rock", "Scissors" beat "Paper". There were a few exceptions, as far as the hybrids went, and certain specs. But in the long run, that was the balance of PvP. Resilience broke the table, making Warriors more dangerous to casters with dot damage reduction, casters were outliving Hunters and Rogues, and things started falling apart. Classes needed to be rebalanced to be fair to all classes, and the Arena system began.

Season 1 was a fun time. People who were already clearing Karazhan were taking those drops and duking it out against people still in Dungeon Set 3. Season 2 followed, being about the same, with some people moving into SSC. People were still doing dungeons, with Shadow Labs and Shattered Halls leading the way as the most annoying instances in Burning Crusade, followed by Arcatraz and Black Morass. Things seemed more challenging.

Then Season 3's arrival caused a shockwave that still affects us now. Season 1, the epic PvP gear, became available through honor. Since Season 1 was a recolor of Tier 4, it looked really good compared to the High Warlord Gear, a rehash of the old PvP gear. Also, it was epic. Most people didn't see epics unless they made it through heroics, Kara, or crafted it themselves. But now...epic gear was available from Orgrimmar/Stormwind.

The problem wasn't the BGs, or how the honor system worked. It was the GEAR. PvP gear worked for PvP, and wasn't so good for PvE. If you wanted to PvE, you couldn’t PvP for it, and if you PvE’d, you could still get owned by someone in S1 just because they outlived you. The fact that you can’t miss an attack, or that you crit higher than them didn’t matter. PvPers negated crit, and had double your stamina.

Dungeons became empty quickly. Heroics halted, raids even stopped. Epic gear at a significantly easier difficulty? "Just hit other players, or just pretend like you are", was what a friend described it. PvE literally slowed to almost a complete halt. When this happened, people who were just reaching 70 found themselves at a fork. Work really hard at PvE and wait 2 hours to get an instance group together before the actual run, OR join the PvP wagon to "easy epics". Quickly even the new 70s abandoned PvE, and those not 70 yet trucked along.

In between Season 3 and 4's release, there became a widespread cult towards PvP, guilds of the such sprouted up, people began to turn PvP into the new "epic" measurement. Legendary glaives from Illidan weren't impressive anymore. Guilds who were doing raids, and were struggling through Karazhan, dropped all progression and went to PvP. PvE was finally casual enough for some people, and yet PvP destroyed that.

There are some myths and lies out there. Part 3 is about that…

“Epic Myths”

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  • Wed, Aug 20 2008 6:21 AM ()

    Before anyone starts flaming (because I know this is a sensitive subject sometimes), please remember.

    I DO NOT HATE PVP. THIS IS NOT A QQ.

    I simply am explaining what happened between PvP and PvE. I'm a player that did engage in both activities almost equally (Priest PvP, Rogue PvE, and no I didn't get that backwards, though the rogue PvPs now).

    Part 3 will be interesting as some of the myths of WoW, lies that people make others believe and the way people are will be revealed. Have a good read.

  • Wed, Aug 20 2008 6:21 AM ()

    well put. i concur! 5/5

  • Wed, Aug 20 2008 6:21 AM ()

    Look forward to reading part 3.

  • 2rbear said 
    Wed, Aug 20 2008 6:21 AM ()

    Good blog! Subscribed and waiting for part 3 ;-)

  • Lesko said 
    Wed, Aug 20 2008 6:21 AM ()

    Very good blog keep going :D

  • Wed, Aug 20 2008 6:21 AM ()

    Bravo, this is so true, I still miss the title thing, that made it hard to get items, now when I go to Kara, Gruuls, and Mag, most of the rogues and hunters will have the pvp gear. Epics are called EPIC for a reason. Doing Arena is good but just Battleground is bad.

  • Wed, Aug 20 2008 6:21 AM ()

    I read this and sympathize with you on this problem, but sadly I am a new generation WoW player who never got a chance to experience all these great things. I am a lvl 31 Dranei Warrior who wishes he could battle dragons like people did pre-BC. I want to do instances like Upper Blackrock Spire and it seems unfair that people gave up on all of this. I hope WoW continues to evolve in a good way, but it stinks that beginners lose out on some really awesome things. Added to that the seemingly easy to date PvP system, and I feel depressed more than anything that we will all have the same epic gear and no one will help noobs. I have the basics down, and in fact I think I can hold my own decently for my level just like all of you one time did and still do. But I want to experiemce Kara and the Sunwell and with the WotLK coming I feel like priority will be given to it OF COURSE, but I still want people to care about BC just as they should for the original. Is my desire a hopeless one? Will I be able to slay a dragon with 40 other ppl maybe not for rewarding gear like it used to be, but for the thrill of the hunt?

  • Thaina said 
    Wed, Aug 20 2008 6:21 AM ()

    Crusnik02 wrote:

    "Work really hard at PvE and wait 2 hours to get an instance group together before the actual run, OR join the PvP wagon to "easy epics"."

    But isn't that difficulty in forming a group in itself indicative that there is a problem? What's fun about working for 2 hours to get an instance group together? This is supposed to be a game, for entertainment!

    That is why I have hardly done instances. It's not that I don't like them per se; when I get a good group, they can be a lot of fun. But that's a big IF. Just getting a group is a major pain, and getting a good group is even harder. PUGs from the LFG channel are a nightmare... often you get total idiots who only want to toss out insults and make the experience as unpleasant as possible, or they will NEED on things they can't even use, on and on.

    Getting the group together is a lot like work. It's not fun... the logistics is just a pain. And half the time you get part way through and your tank or healer has to go do something else, and they leave. And raids, being even bigger groups and requiring participation for more than one session, are only that much worse.

    Battlegrounds are popular in part because they do away with all of that. You just find a battlemaster and sign up and bam, there's your group. You still get a lot of idiots like in the 5-man PUG, but with more people the abuse is a lot more diffuse and easy to ignore. If one of your team has to go do other things, half the time you wouldn't even notice they are gone... someone else will be provided without you having to do anything. If a team member cannot or will not perform their role, it's not as big a thing as it is with a 5-man. A healer that can't heal or a tank that can't keep aggro (or who runs from the mobs-- yes, I was in a group where this happened) is a show-stopper, but in a battleground, it does not matter nearly as much. Even if you get a whole group of people who do not perform and you lose, you still get some honor and a token for your time.

    Then there is the specificity of roles in the 5-man. You could find a group of people who want to do the same instance as you, but they need a tank and you're a rogue, or they need a healer and you are a warlock, on and on. And then you get ones where they need DPS and you're say a fury warrior, but they would really like someone who can do CC, so no thanks.

    With a good group, I prefer pve to pvp, but I do pvp (battlegrounds) a lot more just because its so much easier. I am often online when none or only a few of my friends are on, so running an instance with them (assuming they even want to run one at that moment) is often just not possible without PUGs, and I really don't like those outside of BG. I can, though, do a BG whenever the mood strikes me, and the logistics is all handled for me.

    As for pvp gear not being useful in pve: Maybe this is true in higher level content, but for the player who is in 70 blues and greens, pvp epics are still an upgrade, even though they are "gimped" by their focus on stamina and resilience. And in terms of weapons, it is often hard to do better than the pvp epics.

    In short, PVE is still not casual enough for me. I still can't sit down at the computer, day or night, and just start doing it like I can with battlegrounds. Unless that changes, pvp will continue to be more feasible for people like me. And that's a shame, as I really don't care all that much for pvp.

  • Wed, Aug 20 2008 6:21 AM ()

    I could bet you my 3 70s that if PvP gear sucked, you (or most other players) wouldn't be choosing battlegrounds. When BC first came out, everyone HAD to instance. If you were in battlegrounds, you were in battlegrounds with Kara or 70 instance gear, testing out the power. There was no Season 1/2 for honor, there was blue crap that was equal to (or worse) than the gear that you can buy with Honored Reputation. You had to pay 12000 honor for THOSE shoulders. I'm pretty sure you'd take shoulders with 44 AP over 12 AP, resilience or not. And people found ways to get 1 and 2 hour instances done.

    Instances only got difficult to get groups for AFTER PvP got easier. It was NEVER the other way around. Another myth I'm covering tonight. And yes, that means the 3rd part will be out within the next 24 hours, and I'm glad I can add this to it.

  • Wed, Aug 20 2008 6:21 AM ()

    Things wouldn't be so hard to organize for pre-BC instances if Blizzard removed the attunement requirements. Most attunements require a lot of time, and a lot of the players now either didn't do them on their new mains, or they never knew of them (or needed them) as a newer player.

    MC requires attunement. Onyxia as well, BWL, and Naxx has the worst one. No one has those attunements anymore, so no one can really say "let's go kill Onyxia" because you'll need people who cared back in the day, as well as people who decided to care now. Subtract the entire Draenei and Blood Elf population, and you still have slim chances of finding people attuned.

    So I'm sorry, I wish you could do those old instances, but Blizzard would rather take away attunements to Mount Hyjal and Black Temple than to BC and BWL.

  • Wed, Aug 20 2008 6:21 AM ()

    Blizzard needs to make PvP gear less functional in PvE, and vice versa. I love PvP and don't really care at all about PvE. I'd happily accept my PvP-earned gear sucking in PvE settings.

    Two separate ways of earning gear need two separate sets of functionality. Resilience isn't sufficient differentiation. Raid gear should be lame in PvP, and PvP gear should be worthless in raids.

    Also, nerf melee for crying out loud. (I couldn't not mention that, sorry)

  • daikane said 
    Wed, Aug 20 2008 6:21 AM ()

    Some people still do the "old-world" raids for the heck of doing them for fun (including some Draenei, mind you), doing Naxx attunes and other such if needed.

    Majority's become blinded by the new shiny toys, that's the problem...

  • Wed, Aug 20 2008 6:21 AM ()

    I like the style of your writing. While i may not agree with everything you say, I do find your perspective very clear and not written in that old MMORPG whine tone. I look forward to reading part 3.

  • Wed, Aug 20 2008 6:21 AM ()

    I don't always agree. Raid gear should give a substantial amount of power in comparison to the PvE gear, bringing back the "glass cannon" concept of Arcane/Fire mages. My rogue has PvE gear, and because rogues are hard to kill (even without resilience), he does pretty well in PvP. The PvE side gives a little "glass cannon" feel, and even some classes can destroy arenas in T5 and T6 with little more than 150-200 resilience.

    I was supposed to post the third part, but it doesn't feel good enough, and it seems a little to PvE-friendly than seeing both sides...I'll put it up anyway, and I guess I'll make a PvP portion as a 4th part to it, I did want to mention some parts to PvP (good and bad).

  • Joral said 
    Wed, Aug 20 2008 6:21 AM ()

    I have played WoW from beta until about 6 months ago. i was getting fed up with not being able to get a raid going yet everyone wanting to go PvP (I was on Kilrogg, a PvE server).

    Crusnik02, you are spot on man. If I wanted to play a game mainly devoted to PvP, I wouldn't have been playing WoW. I played WoW because I like the lore mainly.

    What's funny is I am going to be playing WAR now......

  • onikame said 
    Wed, Aug 20 2008 6:21 AM ()

    I started playing WoW at launch 3 or so years ago, (or a week after launch if anyone remembers). I leveld a hunter to 30 on a pve server. It felt very empty, so my buddies and I moved to a pvp server where we started over, (starting over at 30 was huge back when the first 60's were barely budding.

    At our core, we were pvp'ers. This was before battles grounds were implemented, before anyone had down'd ony, before MC was added to the game. We formed a guild with others that felt as we did. (the core, ten people in the guild, were a group of real-life friends, but once the BG's were out, we quickly grew. I won't say that we were the first twinks, needless to say we didn't twink as its done now; but we did collect the best gear for 29, 39 and 49, and take long breaks at those levels just to play BG's, after a month in the 49's we added 75 regular players to our roster, and were playing guild BG's, 10-15 mans nonstop. we quickly formed a reputation.

    thats besides the point, now BG's were fun until we hit 60. There's was a problem. None of us had time to run 40-mans. not between work, school and a minor-social life. So here we were, in SOME blues, playing our BG's, vs. a bunch of raiders in epics (and yes, most of you are/were haughty assholes) thinking you knew everything about the game. But in the end there was severe balance issues, like you said, it was a gear battle, not a skill battle. (thought the paper, rock scissors holds very true)

    Blizz did some amazing things to gear those of us who simply couldn't raid. It took a long time, and the result was what you addressed. One point is that PVP guilds didn't just start popping up, they've been around for ages. (on pvp servers) Blizz may have accidently killed pve, with easy epics, but from the other side of the playing field... the casual gamer (casual being the term for someone who can't commit to the game 10 hours at a time) can now enjoy competitive play, having put in the same game time, over a longer real-time.

    Blizzard just made PvP as effective as PvE for gearing up/progressing. Or, the feeling of progression, which is really what keeps us playing MMO's to begin with. The raid gear is nice, and i can imagine its disappointing when you run up with Illidans sword things and everyones like, meh. I think their cool, but never would i have time to collect them, much less do anything, ANYTHING in a videogame that someone would make me fill out an application for. F that. ... not i'm off subject, thats all for now.

    (ps i don't disagree with you at, there's simply another side to the coin)

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