Has Crowd Control gotten out of hand?

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Guillotine — Wed, 28 Feb 2007 23:58:26 GMT

I personally disagree with the part about Cyclone. Sure, it takes an enemy out of the fray, but so do stuns and fears. And with the latter two, they can continue recieving damage while being unable to do anything. Really, the fact that Cyclone makes the affected immune to all damage balances out the fact that it is undispellable.

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Leper — Wed, 28 Feb 2007 23:58:25 GMT

I think Cyclone should heal you back like Polymorph does, or have some effect where as soon as the target breaks out of it, they have increased hit points, haste rating, damage, or something. With a CC that powerful, you need some drawback - ie the full heal you get from Polymorph.

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Zheon — Wed, 28 Feb 2007 23:58:24 GMT

The new Stoneclaw Totem effect gives a chance to stun you when you attack the GROUPMATES of the shaman that has activated the totem. It's not only when you attack the totem itself.

Cyclone only makes you immobilized for 6 secs, and you are invulnerable to damage during the duration. So i don't think it's that special, anyways, it can be quite annoying if you get cycloned several times in a row making it quite lame. But other than that I think it's not a that special spell.

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Duerma — Wed, 28 Feb 2007 23:58:23 GMT

This topic is frustrating to those of us who don't PvP - so many things are called upon by PvPers to be nerfed because it's imbalanced in the arenas or whatever, but then they are useless in PvE. The BC instances all seem to require tons of CC, and I don't want my instance progression hampered because of something I don't even participate in.

Right now I'm really happy that most classes have even a short form of CC, because it doesn't mean I have to be as strict when organizing my 5 mans. Leave CC how it is, or make any applicable nerfs to be PvP only.

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Hichung — Wed, 28 Feb 2007 23:58:22 GMT

No, stoneclaw totem does not stun you when you attack a shaman's groupmates. This is from the latest patch notes:

"Stoneclaw Totem" now has a 50% chance to stun attackers for 3 sec. when struck.

If you attack the totem, and ONLY when you hit the totem (not a shaman's groupmates), will you have a 50% chance of being stunned.

Link to the test realm patch notes: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=79628006&sid=1

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Guillotine — Wed, 28 Feb 2007 23:58:21 GMT

Zheon: How can it be annoying if you are cycloned several times in a row? It works for a maximum of 6 seconds the first time and a maximum of 3 seconds the second. After that, you are immune. 9 seconds really isn't all that bad when you look at other abilities. Plus, you are immune for that time.

Personally, I think this ability would be far more overpowered if it was usable on allies instead of enemies. Save the priest :)

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Faerlun — Wed, 28 Feb 2007 23:58:20 GMT

The real issue we see here is not the mechanics of certain crowd control skills, but the universal effect that CC has on PvP in general. Ignoring PvE for the moment, lets check out how CC changes gameplay.

When you create an arena team, you keep in mind what CC is in your hands, and more importantly, what methods you have to get yourself out of CC. In fact, this is probably the key reason of why paladins and so hugely popular and compliment every other class in an arena environment.

If you don't have anyone who can cleanse on your team, and your PvP trinket can't break polymorph, will an enemy mage mean a loss in a 2v2 or 3v3 setting? Not necessarily, because there are other ways to get around it like playing with LoS, silencing the mage, and so on. However, it is definitely something to worry about.

I used to play Guild Wars for the PvP, and came to WoW for PvE, however I now play WoW for both PvE and PvP. What I have learned from the disparity between the two games is that really really good PvP emerges when you have to think carefully about what spells to use when, and how to adapt to face other team makeups. Arena play brought us closer to Guild Wars style PvP and away from the old battleground zergs i hated so much.

So what does PvP gameplay have to do with CC? Well, without crowd control, we have very little left to play around with other than focus fire nuking, quick healing, and playing around with LoS. These elements which I just listed I will put in the category of reaction skill. In other words, those elements of PvP are reached through adaptive and on-the-spot thinking.

In contrast, we have team make-up, ability sequences, and enemy adaptation. These are all based around the existence of class counters. For example, a mage can polymorph your team member to turn the tide of the battle in his favor. This is countered by, for example, a paladin who can both get a polymorph off himself, and cleanse it from a teammate. With the number of crowd control and ability inhibiting skills (such as counterspell, silencing shot, and blessing of freedom) in WoW, the class counter network is quite extensive.

In my opinion, the best PvP can be created when everything I have talked about appears in a way that every element is relevant to a battle. With arenas, Blizzard has done this quite well. Do not expect to become a top team with several healing paladins and no DPS. Do not expect to become a top team with a couple elemental shamans and a mage. If you want to get way up there in rating, you have to create a team to counter many different types of opposition.

If you can't use LoS to avoid a fireball while at the same time staying in LoS of your healer, you won't do well either. If your team has one DPS on several targets, and the opposing team has healers, it will be unlikely for you to every actually kill something (this rule does have exceptions, depending on team makeup e.g. several rogues). Again, these elements are required to succeed.

In conclusion, I am an advocate of crowd control to the extent that it is present in the game. Blizzard has done well with arenas.

- Faerlun

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acapela — Wed, 28 Feb 2007 23:58:19 GMT

yes, CC dominates PvP in my opinion. fear, poly, stun... and then execute an essentially helpless opponent. add DoTs and a few other things...

a relatively simple formula which some classes posess, and some classes do not.

diminishing return mechanics don't mean much, either, when encounters are over in 2-3 shots. one would have to make players significantly resistant to these effects, and/or render their duration highly variable, to get out of this snake pit. that would then land you in a highly random crapshoot.

snake pit... or crapshoot... hmm...

the constrained geography of most organized PvP, plus gear imbalance, and other such factors... it just makes a big mess.

as you have probably guessed, i don't much like WoW's PvP mechanics, never have and probably never will. at the same time, i don't know what to do about it (crapshoot bandaids don't much appeal either), short of tossing the whole skill system and working up a different approach. clearly that would not be realistic.

personally, i have arrived at the perception that while maybe the Guild Wars skill system was designed from the perspective of PvP from the outset, and then PvE balanced around that, the WoW skill system was designed from the perspective of PvE first, and then PvP dumped on top of that. the result is a kludge.

just personal opinion, of course.

i would think it would be possible to build a class/skill/talent or capability system that was reasonably balanced for both PvE and PvP, with mechanics that were similar in both contexts (so that skill/talent builds, gear, and play style remained relevant on both sides of the fence). this would have to be a real design goal, though, it would significantly constrain the resulting mechanics, and approaching it from the perspective of "PvP first" would probably be necessary. PvP balance is a much harder problem, i think. PvE would be much easier to build around a solid PvP-balanced system than the other way around.

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bdunosk — Wed, 28 Feb 2007 23:58:18 GMT

Shaman's stoneclaw totem only stuns you if you're silly enough to hit it. GG.

CC has been out of control in this game, hitpoints are the survivability the squishy classes needed pre-BC. I've given up on PVP in this game for now... it's just ridiculous.

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fukz — Wed, 28 Feb 2007 23:58:17 GMT

pls update incorrectly news about shaman totems.

this kind of cheap propaganda is not wanted.

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Zuluhed — Wed, 28 Feb 2007 23:58:16 GMT

totally out of control, but yes as others say please edit what you say about shaman totems.

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Kody — Wed, 28 Feb 2007 23:58:15 GMT

Removed the totem comment entirely, apologies for the confusion. The patch notes were fairly misleading - and considering what most totems do - it's very easy to assume that it would place a buff on your party that had a chance to trigger a stun on attackers.

Again, apologies for the confusion.

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Escoda — Wed, 28 Feb 2007 23:58:14 GMT

Well maybe it's that there will be a Trinket, or maybe added to the normal PvP trinket, to remove the Cyclone effect. That would balance it out quite well.

But for the rest I think that it's ok, there aren't THAT much Druids on the EU servers around, so I personally don't find it any hard. And besides, that there's a little upcoming nerf for Druids, maybe Blizzard did that on purpose ?

Warlock Fear has been nerfed, but about that I have to say, that this nerf isn't really anything .. A Fear usually lasts 5 seconds in PvP for me.

I personally think that everything in CC in BG's is okay. I find it no problem that a Druid uses their abilities to win from me, why should they waste their mana anyways ?

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Illigx — Wed, 28 Feb 2007 23:58:13 GMT

Its rediculous, you should be able to blink/escape artist, or trinket your way out of any type of movement imparing effect, wether it be cyclone, ice nova, disorient, fear, or anything of the sort. It makes dual mage, mage/rogue, or druid/mage/rogue groups unstoppable. Its really not fair when teams who are good and organized get beat by groups that just have alot of CC. I have a 2v2 arena team, and we always seem to break even, because we kick ass against a team with little/as much CC as we do, but just cannot even enjoy a battle with as much CC as there is right now. Im more worried about running karazhan right now until they fix the Arena dynamics.

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Midgetmouse — Wed, 28 Feb 2007 23:58:12 GMT

its rediculous, you should be able to get out of anything with teh iwin button called blink, jeez blizz.

and um... buff sap... it blows